[NIPEATER]

I do not have Blown truck so i was wondering will i see gains from methanol injection. the link below is to a Gm Kit. I was wondering if anyone has had experience with it and can give me insight on it.

Thanks

http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=7

 

[Pladdpezzpunk]

you can run alot more timing using the system, so yes you will gain power if it's tuned properly

 

[WILLIAMJRDN]

lower intake temp, more octane

 

[Alvin]

As a tuner I can say that i have seen good and bad with meth injection. I have picked up some cars over 50rwhp with around 10psi of boost and others like my personal LT1 formula with close to 15 pounds didn't do anything but break even with it.

I'm a strong believer in 100% alcohol. The turbo buick guys think the same. Passing water thru the combustion process removes energy at every step where as running alcohol benifits by great latent heat of vaporization, extremely quick flame travel speeds (water hurts flame travel speed), and heat addition during combustion.

 

[TuneTimePerformance]

As a tuner I can say that i have seen good and bad with meth injection. I have picked up some cars over 50rwhp with around 10psi of boost and others like my personal LT1 formula with close to 15 pounds didn't do anything but break even with it.

I'm a strong believer in 100% alcohol. The turbo buick guys think the same. Passing water thru the combustion process removes energy at every step where as running alcohol benifits by great latent heat of vaporization, extremely quick flame travel speeds (water hurts flame travel speed), and heat addition during combustion.

I agree with you and would like to add Meth [ we use it 100% ] will help when used with a small intercooler or more boost .

 

[HellBlazer]

Methanol is real good for an internal combustion engine. A very clean burning fuel, and will help dissipate carbon build up. Water is also good, in appropriate doses. Consider water as a steam cleaner for the inside of your engine. Water can also remove alot of heat from the combustion process- in some cases good, other cases bad.
We do alot of water/meth injection with diesels. Diesel LOVE both when mixed properly. You can run straight water through a diesel, lower EGTs by about 200* and pick up about 20-30hp.
With a gasser you can run water mixed with meth in low doses, pick up HP and supress detonation. Water carries heat out, where as meth evaporates at lower temperatures, which is why it cools the intake temps. Mixing the water in with meth actually helps slow the evaporation rate of the meth. Usually you wont see substantial gains from it, but if you have a small tank, its a good way to make it last for a while

 

[spddmn]

you can run alot more timing using the system, so yes you will gain power if it's tuned properly

Don't F*ck with the timing, just run the meth and intake temps will lower. Why timing, all seem to think it's the fix all for power, my opinion, asking for trouble but it's your buck!

 

[NIPEATER]

Don't F*ck with the timing, just run the meth and intake temps will lower. Why timing, all seem to think it's the fix all for power, my opinion, asking for trouble but it's your buck!

OK my truck is not Forced Induction. I do want know if it is worth the $300 for the kit and what else do i need? I have seen good results on a BMW 330i(NA Motor) with the MSD system as well. He gained 30HP/30TQ and it smoothed out his torque curve significantly. With the problems our trucks have with heat I think this is a good solution, and its safer than nitrous. I also read this in Hot Rod what do you guys think about this

I was reading about a supercharged GTO in Hot Rod a while ago that only ran 13.9 with 450hp at the wheels. They found that both the tune and heat soak was killing hp across the board. They were losing 10-15hp at the wheels with each pass and by their last run, they dyno'd 295 hp (on a supercharged LS2). To overcome the heat, they cooled the intake with a 50 shot of nitrous and ran 12.8's.

:2cents:

 

[Pladdpezzpunk]

Don't F*ck with the timing, just run the meth and intake temps will lower. Why timing, all seem to think it's the fix all for power, my opinion, asking for trouble but it's your buck!

in a NA motor, why else would you want to cool the intake charge?

timing. In effect methenal runs like a higher octane fuel in effect, you can run more timing without pre ignitian. why else would you run 100 octane fuel? no reason if your not tuned for it. you won't see any gain unless you bump the timing.

Question for Alvin and Tune Time. I always felt (especially for runing brackets) methanal will not necessarly make a sizable difference in power on a NA motor, however will allow you to run more predictable and consistent times . Would this be a fair assumption? If i'm way off base please tell me. Also on SC motors, i've found that cutting back a little PE when running the meth will get more power as well. truth or coincedence?

 

[spddmn]

in a NA motor, why else would you want to cool the intake charge?

timing. In effect methenal runs like a higher octane fuel in effect, you can run more timing without pre ignitian. why else would you run 100 octane fuel? no reason if your not tuned for it. you won't see any gain unless you bump the timing.

Question for Alvin and Tune Time. I always felt (especially for runing brackets) methanal will not necessarly make a sizable difference in power on a NA motor, however will allow you to run more predictable and consistent times . Would this be a fair assumption? If i'm way off base please tell me. Also on SC motors, i've found that cutting back a little PE when running the meth will get more power as well. truth or coincedence?

As we all know, as heat soaked as our engines get, the cooler we can run them, the more power they will produce, stock or other wise, more timing or not! Someone that doesn't really know what their doing, adding timing could be a bad thing!

 

[Alvin]

I do not believe you will see any significant gains with meth on a NA engine.

Also, the goal isn't to get more timing in.... its to be able to optimally time the engine with out knock.

straight meth should shoot the flame travel speed thru the roof so really you may not need any timing at all.. prehaps less. Just depends on the situation.


Another thing.. cooler isn't always better. There was somthing I studied once in chemistry.. delt with heat of formation, dissosciations (sp?), vaporization, etc. Can't remeber the name of it exactly but it goes like this.

Basically the engine is a big energy balance... The reactants must dissociate before burning so they suck up a bit of heat, they combust and release some heat, then heat is needed for formation into the final products. What I'm saying is its not always a good thing to have super cool fuel because it takes heat to break them down so that they can combust.

Have you ever seen that old racer.. forgot his name but he ran a fiero on superheated fuel to achieve great power and fuel mileage? He did this for reasons bove.

 

[Warped]

Have you ever seen that old racer.. forgot his name but he ran a fiero on superheated fuel to achieve great power and fuel mileage? He did this for reasons above.

Smokey Yunick

 

[Team ZR-1]

During world war II the military did a ton of testing for fighter aircraft.

In short methanol is better then others and best is 50/50 ratio of water/methanol

Any more meth then that is not only wasting money but the water does the best in pulling the heat out of the airmass leaving the meth to supply good colder aircharge in cylinders.

Scary how many sell w/meth kits or tune that have little knowledge about what was learned almost 60 years ago.
With proper tuning a NA engine will see a performace increase, allow for more timing to gain more torque and prevent loss of timing due to engine ping.

Those of us old enough remember back in the 1970s with oil crisis where even GM came out with car models that came with water/meth since it allowed using a cheaper lower octane gas. They ceased doing it solely because people were too lazy to fill w/meth tank.
I have used w/meth since my 1974 vette back then

Some thoughts :

1. Maximum Torque occurs at a 13.2:1 Air Fuel Ratio.
2. Transitional Fueling and Maximum Boost Air Fuel Ratios are about 12.5:1.
3. Water Injection is most efficient with a 50/50 water / methanol) mixture.
4. Methanol is usually found where racing fuels are sold.
5. Denatured (ethanol) alcohol, typically 95% pure, is available in paint, hardware, and Home Depot type stores in gallon containers for about $10.00. Expensive but available everywhere. Isopropyl alcohol can be used but it is often 30% or more water by content.
6. Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive or closer to stock. In other words boost does not automatically mean retard your timing.
7. Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating.
8. Water to Fuel ratios should be based on weight and not volume.
9 . Water weighs 8.33 lb per gallon.
10. Alcohol weighs 6.63 lb per gallon.
11. Air weighs .080645 lb per cubic foot. It takes about 150 cubic feet of air per 100 horsepower. It takes about 12 lb of air per 100 horsepower.
12. Water or Water / Alcohol to Fuel Ratios are between 12.5% to 25%. This means Air to Fluid Ratios are between 11.1:1 and 10.0:1 with water injection.
13. Maximum water delivery should be in higher load low to mid rpm ranges tapering somewhat at peak rpms where load is less.
14. Atomization of the water mixture is directly related to it effectiveness. Finer droplets cool the inlet charge better and with less mass they navigate the inlet plenum easier for more equal water distribution.
15. Don’t flow water through an intercooler.
16. Atomized water, just like fuel , does not like to make turns thus making accurate distribution something to think about. This is why port fuel injection is the norm. Water is a fluid just like your fuel. Multiple nozzes, equally spaced in the plenum, although it complicates things, is a superior design.
17. The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque. It’s always about torque.
18. Racing high octane gasoline should be used for all forms of competition and for higher than normal boost levels. Water injection as well as charge cooling should be used with racing gas. 91/92 Octane pump gas simply will not cut it. Water spray cooling of the intercooler is a good idea.
19. Fuel Injectors operate in the 1 Millisecond range and are not capable of long term usage for H20 as they will corrode or rust shut in a very short period of time. Unless a solenoid can open as fast as a fuel injector it should not be used to "pulse" water injection events.
20. Varying voltage to water injection pumps or using similar schemes is a recipe for disaster. You have to eliminate the variables, not increase them.
21. Fuel Injection pumps cannot be used for water injection. Water is conductive. Gasoline is not. Water will corrode an efi pump shut in a very short period of time.
22. Water injection has a cooling effect on the engine head, valves, and cylinder. Exhaust temperatures (EGT) are largely unaffected at recommended water / fuel ratios.
23. The cooling of potential hot spots in the combustion chamber defeats pre-ignition, the most destructive form of uncontrolled or unplanned combustion.
24. Higher static compression ratios will require a higher percentage of water or water / alcohol.
25. No, water does not burn. We are not combusting the hydrogen in the H2O.
26. At around 13.2:1 or fuel air ratios of .75, EGT’s will peak.