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The delta pag fans are only ~200 - 250 watts. They are not nearly as powerful as the 600W SPAL C7 Corvette fan.
Using power consumption to indicate work is wrong. It's backwards. It excludes efficiency. Its like saying a car that makes more noise is the fastest.

The only purpose of a fan is to move air, CFM. The repercussion of moving air is power consumption. If you can move more air with less power consumption, you're the winner. The SPAL fan will always be less efficient per unit of airflow than the Delta PAG due to two key points; 1. Fan design & 2. Motor construction/components.

Fan Design:
The Spal fan stuffs everything in the motor, electronics ect. Making the motor/ fan hub 8" in diameter, leaving less area for fan blades and airflow. That means for every given diameter the Spal fan will need to compress the air more to give you the same airflow vs the Delta PAG fan. The Delta PAG fan motor diameter is only 3". In addition, Spal's bulkier motor blocks alot of ram-air hitting the radiator, creating overheating issues at higher speeds. This is why Chevy is getting sued because of the Corvette's cooling system (4th lawsuit filed over C7 Corvette Z06 cooling issues). In addition, it needs the fan to operate more frequently during normal driving conditions because it blocks alot of natural airflow. The Spal fan weighs 11lbs vs 4.50lbs and is about an 1" thicker, maybe not important for this conversation, but the top race teams love this data.

Motor Construction and motor components:
As mentioned above the motor diameter plays a big part on efficiency. So how does Delta PAG make such power with such a small motor? For one, they don't incorporate any electronics in the motor. Its a dumb idea to stuff electronics in a motor. Delta separate them in a replaceable, waterproof module. The drawbacks, it's an extra component and it increases cost because now you need to waterproof it (connectors/module casing ect). Delta PAG uses an outer rotor (Outrunner) brushless motor design vs Spal that uses an inner rotor (inrunner) design. There's a bunch of articles discussing the benefits of an outrunner on the web. Generally, an outer rotor brushless motor has a larger surface area for stator and more permanent magnet area creating more work per given diameter. The drawbacks are you can't waterproof the motor and its more expensive since you need more magnets. The magnets, Delta PAG uses Neodymium, the most powerful magnets on the market, drawbacks they're ridiculously expensive.

The Delta PAG Fan is more efficient per CFM than Spal. Period. But its not 50% more efficient. Agreed. DeltaPAG is more like 30%. That's where settings and motor speeds come in. Delta PAG's top speed setting is lower than some of Spals models, some. Note, spal has different watt ratings on different fans. The Watt rating on spal has more to do with firmware setting speed than motor construction capability. Some of them are spun slower, some faster depending on the application. That's correct, you're supposed to do that. A brushless motor can spin 40,000RPMs. Delta PAG's motor can spin 10x faster and consume 1kw continuously, without a problem, but that's not very efficient. I guess you can purchase different DeltaPAG electronic modules for different speeds, That's why most Delta PAG builds are matched for the ideal fan speed, based on the vehicle/static pressure. Dialing that in for the aftermarket is difficult. Most people don't know, they pile condensers, oil coolers, and intercoolers and have no idea what the static pressure/restriction is.

Sorry this went a bit long, but its important to note that not all Brushless are created alike. Bottom line, it comes down to airflow and airflow only, not power consumption. Which one can move more air. That's the whole point of a fan. Per unit of power, Delta PAG moves more air.
 

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Using power consumption to indicate work is wrong. It's backwards. It excludes efficiency. Its like saying a car that makes more noise is the fastest.

The only purpose of a fan is to move air, CFM. The repercussion of moving air is power consumption. If you can move more air with less power consumption, you're the winner. The SPAL fan will always be less efficient per unit of airflow than the Delta PAG due to two key points; 1. Fan design & 2. Motor construction/components.

Fan Design:
The Spal fan stuffs everything in the motor, electronics ect. Making the motor/ fan hub 8" in diameter, leaving less area for fan blades and airflow. That means for every given diameter the Spal fan will need to compress the air more to give you the same airflow vs the Delta PAG fan. The Delta PAG fan motor diameter is only 3". In addition, Spal's bulkier motor blocks alot of ram-air hitting the radiator, creating overheating issues at higher speeds. This is why Chevy is getting sued because of the Corvette's cooling system (4th lawsuit filed over C7 Corvette Z06 cooling issues). In addition, it needs the fan to operate more frequently during normal driving conditions because it blocks alot of natural airflow. The Spal fan weighs 11lbs vs 4.50lbs and is about an 1" thicker, maybe not important for this conversation, but the top race teams love this data.

Motor Construction and motor components:
As mentioned above the motor diameter plays a big part on efficiency. So how does Delta PAG make such power with such a small motor? For one, they don't incorporate any electronics in the motor. Its a dumb idea to stuff electronics in a motor. Delta separate them in a replaceable, waterproof module. The drawbacks, it's an extra component and it increases cost because now you need to waterproof it (connectors/module casing ect). Delta PAG uses an outer rotor (Outrunner) brushless motor design vs Spal that uses an inner rotor (inrunner) design. There's a bunch of articles discussing the benefits of an outrunner on the web. Generally, an outer rotor brushless motor has a larger surface area for stator and more permanent magnet area creating more work per given diameter. The drawbacks are you can't waterproof the motor and its more expensive since you need more magnets. The magnets, Delta PAG uses Neodymium, the most powerful magnets on the market, drawbacks they're ridiculously expensive.

The Delta PAG Fan is more efficient per CFM than Spal. Period. But its not 50% more efficient. Agreed. DeltaPAG is more like 30%. That's where settings and motor speeds come in. Delta PAG's top speed setting is lower than some of Spals models, some. Note, spal has different watt ratings on different fans. The Watt rating on spal has more to do with firmware setting speed than motor construction capability. Some of them are spun slower, some faster depending on the application. That's correct, you're supposed to do that. A brushless motor can spin 40,000RPMs. Delta PAG's motor can spin 10x faster and consume 1kw continuously, without a problem, but that's not very efficient. I guess you can purchase different DeltaPAG electronic modules for different speeds, That's why most Delta PAG builds are matched for the ideal fan speed, based on the vehicle/static pressure. Dialing that in for the aftermarket is difficult. Most people don't know, they pile condensers, oil coolers, and intercoolers and have no idea what the static pressure/restriction is.

Sorry this went a bit long, but its important to note that not all Brushless are created alike. Bottom line, it comes down to airflow and airflow only, not power consumption. Which one can move more air. That's the whole point of a fan. Per unit of power, Delta PAG moves more air.

I agree efficiency is not debatable. Feel free to look at our published airflow numbers and curves. We publish our efficiency curves right in our brushless fan catalog on our website. Here's a link to our catalog if you want to see our efficiency curves: Adobe Acrobat Some of our brushless fans are over 40% efficient at some points, and usually we try to select a fan such that it is greater than 30% overall efficiency at the expected working conditions of our customers. (The working points at which the fans were designed to operate is usually >40%.)

Basically it sounds like you agree, that more power = more flow at higher pressure. (That isn't debatable, it's the definition of Fan Power: Fans - Efficiency and Power Consumption) If you notice, RPM is also not part of the power equation. I think it's reasonably safe to 'assume' from a modern fan company that the blade/motor efficiency of 'any' fan you buy isn't going to be absolute trash. (Especially since half are copies of SPAL fan blades anyway, but that's not the point I'm making here.) If a fan company made crap fans with low efficiency that fan company wouldn't sell many fans. (I guess this is a poor argument as some companies sell fans that have some really 'interesting' blade designs.) SPAL is on track to sell 7 million fans this year, which about 4 million of them are brushless fans. But we don't sell a TON of fans because we are terrible at it.

But the Delta PAG fans are designed to use less power. So... it is what it is. You can spin it however it makes you feel comfortable, but more current draw = more motor power = more motor torque. Coupled with a 'good/decent' blade design means more airflow. That's why the unit for 'power' is watts and the equation is watts = volts * amps. (Notice no RPM.) It doesn't care how fast or efficient your fan is. A fan 'could' be designed that has good efficiency at lower static pressures, and I would argue that's what Delta Pag does well. Also price is a good consideration in selecting a product, you should select something within your budget. Delta Pag makes a unique product for the market and I'm glad SPAL isn't the only player in this industry. But to say that more power isn't better,,, c'mon now. Jeremy Clarkson, and Tim Taylor would have a good laugh at that.

Not sorry for the long wordy post. Just trying to learn you guys something. I would put a 20A Delta Pag fan against my 1 kW, 74A fan any day. I think it's stupidly obvious which will make more wind.

-Brent
 

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Motor Construction and motor components:
As mentioned above the motor diameter plays a big part on efficiency. So how does Delta PAG make such power with such a small motor? For one, they don't incorporate any electronics in the motor. Its a dumb idea to stuff electronics in a motor. Delta separate them in a replaceable, waterproof module. The drawbacks, it's an extra component and it increases cost because now you need to waterproof it (connectors/module casing ect). Delta PAG uses an outer rotor (Outrunner) brushless motor design vs Spal that uses an inner rotor (inrunner) design. There's a bunch of articles discussing the benefits of an outrunner on the web. Generally, an outer rotor brushless motor has a larger surface area for stator and more permanent magnet area creating more work per given diameter. The drawbacks are you can't waterproof the motor and its more expensive since you need more magnets.
It's also a requirement of nearly all of our customers that the motors be sealed. This is fairly standard in applications where water, dirt, and dust may come in contact with a fan. SPAL has made open motors, and sold them into automotive applications into the 90's. But automotive requirements have become much more stringent in recent years. Operating temperatures, and underhood temperatures are increasing, and so do the power demands from our fans. SPAL brushless fans are IP6K9K rated, for high pressure wash. Even our brushed fans are IP68 sealed and submersible in water. Not saying that makes us 'better' just that we do things differently. But we do many things differently than other brushless fan companies, some things out of cost and others because it makes for a better, more powerful, higher temperature rated, or more quiet operating fan. I don't want this to be taken as me bashing on Delta Pag, or any fan company. I am happy that they are here, in our industry, and I like the fact they are a good ol' American Company. (SPAL fans are all made in Italy.) I think competition is what drives us forward and we intend to continue producing high quality products that meet the demands of our customers unapologetically. I'm sure Delta Pag, Flex-A-Lite, Derale, and even PowerCool will be there with us in the future, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Our fans are made to order and we sell every fan. So it doesn't personally hurt my feelings if people don't buy SPAL fans. I'm just here to help people build cars/vehicles that don't overheat and I'm sure the Delta Pag guys would agree, that's why we do what we do.

So sorry if I came off as rash. I get a little heated over this stuff sometimes. Gotta take a lesson out of our own book, and just cool off sometimes.
 

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Hey Brent,

Yes, the Brushless Spal is designed differently than the Delta PAG. Also, no worries bro, there's nothing to apologize and no reason to get heated, engineering is engineering and math is math. There is no argument really. I am sure you'll agree there's significant difference in efficiency from Brushed to Brushless, yeah blade geometries are a minor improvement, but airflow area has enormous affects on efficiency (small motor diameter is key). In addition, I don't think you get how RPM is related to power consumption, work, or the importance of efficiency. Yes, Watts = Amps x Volts, but again does not tell you efficiency and how much work is being done. For example. 500hp car with round wheels will be faster than a 1,000hp car with square wheels. Which car's "engine" is more powerful? The 1,000hp. Which car "complete car" is more powerful? The 500hp car, cause its more efficient for the job at hand. Point of a car is to travel fast.

Agreed, the 1kw Spal Brushless will move more air than the Delta PAG fan at 240watts. But a 600Watt Delta PAG fan will out flow the 1kw Spal Brushless, easily, and its lighter, thinner and not restrictive. Can the Delta PAG fan run at 600Watts, sure, you just spin it faster (where RPMs plays a part), it's a variable speed motor.

Also very important to mention, at 1kw the Spal Brushless fan will grenade itself in 15min. Delta PAG only runs their fans at max speed for continuous operation, not a self-destructive speeds to make marketing#s.

BTW the following are some engineering equations from a fellow engineer, note the RPM and fan efficiency in the fan laws:

746Watt = 1HP = (torque(lbft) x RPM) / 5252 = (CFM x PSI) / (229 X fan efficiency)

Also this important equation (from the link you posted) great website btw, I used it a bunch during collage for conversions:

P = dp q / μf

The above is how the efficiency curves are calculated. Since you agree that the Delta PAG fan is more efficient than Spal, clearly it will be lower watts vs Spal for the same work (dp q). As efficiency (μf) increases, power consumption (P) or watts decreases.

Efficiency is very important. Posting high Watt numbers doesn't mean it's a stronger fan. Just like the 1000hp car is not the faster car. It's important that you understand this.
 

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Hey Brent,

Yes, the Brushless Spal is designed differently than the Delta PAG. Also, no worries bro, there's nothing to apologize and no reason to get heated, engineering is engineering and math is math. There is no argument really. I am sure you'll agree there's significant difference in efficiency from Brushed to Brushless, yeah blade geometries are a minor improvement, but airflow area has enormous affects on efficiency (small motor diameter is key). In addition, I don't think you get how RPM is related to power consumption, work, or the importance of efficiency. Yes, Watts = Amps x Volts, but again does not tell you efficiency and how much work is being done. For example. 500hp car with round wheels will be faster than a 1,000hp car with square wheels. Which car's "engine" is more powerful? The 1,000hp. Which car "complete car" is more powerful? The 500hp car, cause its more efficient for the job at hand. Point of a car is to travel fast.

Agreed, the 1kw Spal Brushless will move more air than the Delta PAG fan at 240watts. But a 600Watt Delta PAG fan will out flow the 1kw Spal Brushless, easily, and its lighter, thinner and not restrictive. Can the Delta PAG fan run at 600Watts, sure, you just spin it faster (where RPMs plays a part), it's a variable speed motor.

Also very important to mention, at 1kw the Spal Brushless fan will grenade itself in 15min. Delta PAG only runs their fans at max speed for continuous operation, not a self-destructive speeds to make marketing#s.

BTW the following are some engineering equations from a fellow engineer, note the RPM and fan efficiency in the fan laws:

746Watt = 1HP = (torque(lbft) x RPM) / 5252 = (CFM x PSI) / (229 X fan efficiency)

Also this important equation (from the link you posted) great website btw, I used it a bunch during collage for conversions:

P = dp q / μf

The above is how the efficiency curves are calculated. Since you agree that the Delta PAG fan is more efficient than Spal, clearly it will be lower watts vs Spal for the same work (dp q). As efficiency (μf) increases, power consumption (P) or watts decreases.

Efficiency is very important. Posting high Watt numbers doesn't mean it's a stronger fan. Just like the 1000hp car is not the faster car. It's important that you understand this.
Careful, I didn't say that Delta Pag is more efficient. I would never make such an uninformed claim.
I am simply saying if you claim to be more efficient, at what point of airflow/pressure do you claim to be more efficient? Which one of our fans are you comparing to? Because saying you're more efficient is a very broad statement considering we have almost 1,000 different part numbers of fans that are designed with varying operating conditions and working points in mind.

I also wouldn't go so far as to say that your fan is lower quality than ours. (I wouldn't say anything bad about any competitors product. I'll leave that to the customers to decide.) Saying our fan will grenade after 15 mins of use is simply not true. Do you think a fan company could stay in business selling fans that only last 15 mins? Obviously our fans end up in some of the harshest environments and SPAL prides themselves on performance and quality. All our Brushless fans are rated to 40,000+ hours of use just like yours. The only difference is ours are more powerful, and come with sealed motors.

3 indisputable math fan equations to describe physics with fans:

Work is defined as power per unit time, or Watts. Watt - Wikipedia
Power Input (Watts) = Volts * Amps
Airflow Output (Watts) = m³/s (airflow) * Pascals (static pressure)
Fan Efficiency = Airflow output / Power input
Fans - Efficiency and Power Consumption

Some observations:
1. Fan Efficiency is not dependent on RPM.
2. Assuming motor efficiency and blade efficiencies are similar: More input power with similar efficiencies = more airflow/output. 600W at 30% efficiency is always greater than 240 watts at 30% efficiency.
3. Volts, and Amps are easy to measure. Pressure drops and airflow rates are not so easy for the average person to measure as it often requires specialty equipment to measure accurately. So it is easy for people to be deceived based on something they don't fully understand. This is true for any fan company. It's unfortunate our industry has become so obsessed with CFM Rating, which typically refers to max CFM or free air condition CFM. I would argue CFM Rating is 'good to know' but not solely something you should base your fan selection on. Blade design, motor power/efficiency, and functionality/control are way better criteria for selecting a fan. (Delta Pag would agree that variable speed >> Than just turning brushed a fan on/off. Brushless fans are the future for sure!) Compare SPAL CFM ratings to PowerCool CFM ratings, or Flex-A-Lite's ratings. We all know the ratings are all over the place, and there are many reasons for that. So it's not outlandish to say "Take CFM ratings with a grain of salt, and maybe look to other factors like power consumption or blade design when selecting a fan."
4. SPAL fans are not designed with 'free air CFM' as a consideration. We are trying to create airflow that will overcome a level of restriction in a heat exchanger. Usually our OEM customers come to us with "1,500 CFM @ 1.2 in H20." Or an exact working point. When you have the working point you can design a fan that is optimized for efficiency at such a point. So all of our fans are designed for an Optimal point or small operating range.
5. Not all customers will use a fan in the same pressure range as the original design intent. Again, this is true with any fan manufacturer. People buy the wrong fan for their application ALL THE TIME, and usually it's because someone told them they needed '2000 CFM' or '3000 CFM', and that's all the cared about.
6. John will agree we could both slap a label on the fans that say "3000 CFM Fan" and we 'could' sell them like hot cakes. But that wouldn't always translate to a happy end customer. There should be more criteria to buying a fan than just a CFM rating. I think Chris Farley hit it on the head with the warranty guarantee on the box of brake pads. :) Yes I wish we could standardize CFM testing and get better/more accurate data out there to everyone's customers. But a fan company would be ignorant to agree to a test that may result in their product being passed over in the market place, and there are just too many variables to make it a level playing field for everyone. Just one example, SPAL tests fans at 13V, DCM/Maradyne test their fans at 13.5V. Air pressure, temperature, and air density all make a difference as well as the equipment used to conduct the test.

So when you make a claim like "Bottom line, it comes down to airflow and airflow only, not power consumption. Which one can move more air. That's the whole point of a fan. Per unit of power, Delta PAG moves more air. " I would argue that I bet someone has designed a more efficient fan than you at some working points. Since I know that our fans are not "ALL ENCOMPASSING MAX EFFICIENCY" at all working points nor do we claim to be, no fan can be. There are compromises when you design a fan blade, or a motor. For example noise, vibration, resonance frequencies, etc.

I think people should know who they are dealing with in this thread. So ultimately in this thread is a gentleman's argument between John (The founder/CEO of Delta Pag Fans) https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-pairaktaridis-00a3689/ and myself, Brent Chuck Applications Engineer at SPAL https://www.linkedin.com/in/brent-chuck-51517691/ The real underlying argument is at what working point or pressure ranges are our two respective fan brands the most efficient. SPAL makes high power consuming fans for high flow at increased pressures. We don't make ceiling fans. Delta Pag makes fans that provide high flow at lower static pressures, and as a result, less power consumption is required from the fan. This isn't arguable based on the design features of the Delta Pag fan, with the smaller diameter motor, and the narrow S blade design. We have fans that use a similar 'S' blade geometry, and they work well for applications where the static pressure requirements are lower. 30102049 for example. But that particular blade design doesn't result in high efficiencies when operating at greater static pressures, so we have many different motor and blade designs.

I have met John at various shows and he's a good guy, and has been nothing but friendly with me. Don't let what I say deter anyone or influence the way anyone views our respective companies. But as John mentioned there's no bad blood between us, just a disagreement in the way things work. I believe more power -> more airflow, which is true if you believe/assume SPAL motors and Delta Pag motors and blades all have similar motor/blade efficiencies. I think more power is what makes a car faster, if you think making a car more aerodynamic makes it faster, you do you.

Let me know when a major automotive OEM specs your fans into a modern production car. I'd like to see it.

Also, please make a 600W Delta Pag fan. I would love that immensely, I'd even buy one from you to test.

Agree to Disagree.
-Brent
 

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View attachment 101906

Numbers don't lie. Here's the 1.1 kW brushless fan running at 13V. We're above 35%, closer to 40% efficiency for the range our customers would use this fan. Obviously running it at reduced power levels would cause the efficiency to increase, this is just at full speed with a full pressure sweep.
View attachment 101906

Numbers don't lie. Here's the 1.1 kW brushless fan running at 13V. We're above 35%, closer to 40% efficiency for the range our customers would use this fan. Obviously running it at reduced power levels would cause the efficiency to increase, this is just at full speed with a full pressure sweep.
BTW, still not the most powerful fan SPAL makes. This one is up towards the top of the list for 12V though. We'll have something even more powerful in the future, it's not going to stop. Our customers keep asking for more fan power, so we will keep giving it to them.
 

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Hey Brent, thought that it might be you. Thanks man, I also think you're a very bright, professional and solid guy every time we rub elbows at these trade shows. I'd be happy to buy you a beer next time. Whenever that is. I miss those shows this year, SEMA, PRI, ect. we all did.

First, I only compare the Delta PAG fan with other Brushless fans. Its not fair comparing to anything else. It'd be like comparing a corvette to a horse and buggy. So lets leave those kiddys out if it. They're not there yet. Yeah, some of the CFM measurements out there are completely ridiculous. All airflow measurements should be tested as a curve at various static pressures and speeds (yeah, speeds, like motor RPM) We had all of our fans tested and certified by an accredited international organization that uses global standard of airflow measuring. Yes, there are standards and yes there are companies that certify airflow #s. We're Not going to slap a sticker on our box based with testing done inhouse. Measurements done inhouse are prone to exaggeration. Stay tuned for the official certified reports with all of the curves with static pressures and airflows. Hopefully more companies will follow our lead on certifying their numbers.

Ok, now back to the airflow, power consumption and efficiency, uhh... conversation/writing/messeging... whatever. There is no "Agree to Disagree" with engineering. This is not theoretical physics, there are 3 Fan Laws. All of the fan laws have a speed factor and the affect that will have on airflow, power consumption and static pressure. There are only two things that all designers need to know about a fan; what CFM? and at what static pressure? That's the work its doing in a given environment. Then they should pick the fan with the most airflow at the Lowest(not highest) amps at the given static pressure required. Extra credit if it's also thinner, lighter, and quieter.

I don't think you know the Delta PAG's product at all. It can move immense air at extremely high static pressures and we readily test to 1.50inH20, but the RPMs are higher and the watts are higher too. The increased max speed is to account for the higher static pressure. Again, these are variable speed motors and can easily be adjusted with firmware to immense speeds and power consumptions. If you need that.

Now, I really believe the Delta PAG fan has a more efficient motor and more efficient fan blade geometry with thinner blades and overall more efficient fan design. But that could be a debate for another time. Maybe over Beers at PRI. Here's a question you can chew over, till then. If narrow fan blades cant pull that much pressure, how come propellers and planes are so narrow and yet they can pull an entire airplane. Why don't they use paddle blades like Spal?

Yeah, we're not dealing with very large OEMs. right now, we are primarily focused on high end, race applications and fleet industry. These guys are looking for high reliability, high efficiency with a tons of air. Also it pays a lot better. The margins are non-existent in these OEMs. That's why Modine sold their Auto business for $1. I don't blame them. Maybe these OEMs, like Chevy Corvette, will call us because they're tired of getting sued and want to use a proper cooling system :p

Hey what fan is used in the Corvette?

Sure, I can put together a 600Watt Fan together for you, we just got our new modules in that we can flash on the fly.

On another note, I don't understand your 600watt claim. I just looked at your pdf of your 16", largest fans, the highest amps was like 31amps = 31amps x 13v = 400Watts, what is this 600 referring to?
 

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I've used a lot of fans, and most aftermarket fans are either undersized or just garbage. Having kept many cars for many years, I also realize that radiator fins get bent, insects get permanently integrated into your radiator, aftermarket radiators get thicker (normally with higher dP), and additional HX (oil, intercooler, transmission, etc.) get added in front of radiators. High dP performance is pretty important to me- much more so than for a factory application where the heat loads and dP requirements are both lower.

Personally, when I was looking at fans, Delta PAG looked really interesting and I like the idea of buying American, but the complete lack of flow charts or any technical data on the website turned me off. Same thing for intercooler pumps, fuel pumps, fuel injectors, etc. Those with data win. Of course, I'm an engineer working for a compressor/blower manufacturer, so this may have something to do with it... On a semi-related note, we buy cooling fans for our sound enclosures, and it's shockingly difficult to find a vendor with good technical data.

Tim
 

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Great fan info here and I like reading about this topic. The two vendors seem knowledgeable and cordial to each other. Which can some times be challenging with some "know it all" personalities.

Too bad this valuable information is going down in a low traffic forum. IMHO this info would be helpful too all gearheads that modify their rides at any level.

Carry on - I got my popcorn ready.
 

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I've used a lot of fans, and most aftermarket fans are either undersized or just garbage. Having kept many cars for many years, I also realize that radiator fins get bent, insects get permanently integrated into your radiator, aftermarket radiators get thicker (normally with higher dP), and additional HX (oil, intercooler, transmission, etc.) get added in front of radiators. High dP performance is pretty important to me- much more so than for a factory application where the heat loads and dP requirements are both lower.

Personally, when I was looking at fans, Delta PAG looked really interesting and I like the idea of buying American, but the complete lack of flow charts or any technical data on the website turned me off. Same thing for intercooler pumps, fuel pumps, fuel injectors, etc. Those with data win. Of course, I'm an engineer working for a compressor/blower manufacturer, so this may have something to do with it... On a semi-related note, we buy cooling fans for our sound enclosures, and it's shockingly difficult to find a vendor with good technical data.

Tim
Hey Tim,

Yes, completely agree. Please stay tuned. Delta PAG will be revamping our website and releasing complete datasheets that are tested and certified by a third party (not inhouse #s) using global standards for air flow and efficiency measurements. All of our datasheets will be certified. Sorry about the delay, marketing is a bit on the back burner here. We've been working on a bunch of new products.

John
 

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I've used a lot of fans, and most aftermarket fans are either undersized or just garbage. Having kept many cars for many years, I also realize that radiator fins get bent, insects get permanently integrated into your radiator, aftermarket radiators get thicker (normally with higher dP), and additional HX (oil, intercooler, transmission, etc.) get added in front of radiators. High dP performance is pretty important to me- much more so than for a factory application where the heat loads and dP requirements are both lower.

Personally, when I was looking at fans, Delta PAG looked really interesting and I like the idea of buying American, but the complete lack of flow charts or any technical data on the website turned me off. Same thing for intercooler pumps, fuel pumps, fuel injectors, etc. Those with data win. Of course, I'm an engineer working for a compressor/blower manufacturer, so this may have something to do with it... On a semi-related note, we buy cooling fans for our sound enclosures, and it's shockingly difficult to find a vendor with good technical data.

Tim
Hello Tim,

We have sound data on hand for most of our fan models. Especially the commonly used versions, you just have to ask for it, we don't publish it.

Reach out to me and let me know what you're looking for, we can talk fan noise if you'd like. We have lots of options.
[email protected]

Kind Regards,
Brent
 

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SPAL's part description breaks down the components that make up the fan. So when you see "ABLxxx" on the motor, that is the motor family designation. "ABL" A=12V, BL = Brushless. The first numerical digit tells you which motor family the motor is from, not the wattage of the fan. So the 16" fan you're referencing is VA117-ABL506P-103A, which tells you this fan is from the "500 watt" motor family, and it was assigned "06" as it was likely the 6th version SPAL made. As you mentioned, this fan is capable of ~31 - 35 amps at full speed. Which puts this fan ~455 watts, but wait it's a 500 Watt motor family? The RPM change rates and RPM limits are 'programed' to the fan. I'm not 100% sure why this particular version is limited to ~450 watts, but it's likely due to the temperature rating for this fan being higher (105°C+ at full performance, and derating performance up to 120°C.) Or if it is limited by the amount of torque the motor can spin. This 405mm blade is the largest blade we use with the 5" diameter motor. Larger blades go up to our 8" diameter "HT" or High Torque motor.

VA117 is the shroud, tells you it was the 117th shroud design SPAL had.
103A is the blade number, shows it was the 103rd blade SPAL designed. "A" usually denotes puller, but the brushless fans are used for both push and pull applications. "S" would be pusher.

Being able to program RPM is only part of the equation for SPAL. Our fans need to be able to operate at full performance and do so in high ambient temperatures, and harsh environments. Most of SPAL's patents are design features, or motor features that help dissipate heat from the motor, allowing us to operate at higher power or higher ambient temps than our competition. The brushless motors have allowed us to 'tune' the motor to meet the performance requirements and maintain higher max ambient operating temperatures. So we can take a 300W motor, and turn it up to 450 watts, but the result is having to reduce the max operating temperature. Same is true for the 500W motor, we can turn it up to 850W but at the cost of top end temperature. It also depends on how much torque is required. It takes less torque to spin a 10" blade as it does a 16" blade. So for example, our 10" fan VA109-ABL321P/N-109A/SH is ~33 amps (~429 watts) at full speed from a 300W motor family and is still able to meet our 105°C @ full speed requirement.

In the case of the C7 Z06 fan, it started life as our 14" fan with 500W motor, and we 'turned it up' to 600W. Turning up the power required some changes to the motor cap to increase heat dissipation, and maintain the required max operating temperatures. So if you were to compare a 600W and a 500W motor, you can see the differences in the motor cap. But that's why it says ABL600P on the motor it's identifying the motor family.
 

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Ahh, do I see RPM mentioned in your post regarding power consumption? I think you're starting to understand. This is fan law 3 where every increase in rpm increased power consumption by its cubed root, or power of 3. This is very well understood in high performance vehicles and aero dynamics. anyway, lets leave that, but I think you're starting to get it.

On another note, re your fan speed derating based on temperature... 105c speed/watt derating temperature is very low. So at 220F the fan slows down? That's operating temperature of most newer engines, like the LS or LT. I think the LS application fans are called for at 250F. Underhood/near radiator temperatures are basically at +200F, so basically the Spal fan speed reduces almost immediately? to what level? Based on your info it will be impossible to sustain even 500watts for very long in an underhood application. Even at 85c ambient temperature, a 20c temperature rise (Junction temps Tj) at 40amps is nearly instantaneous. Do you sell any of these to engineers?

The Delta PAG fans are Grade 0. Means 150c continuous. These components are more expensive but they get the job done. We don't reduce speed when the application needs max air...uhh... that causes vehicle overheating. Uhm... Duhh. Now if our product is used in applications north of 150c Tj (302F) then the life of our ECM control module is reduced. Which then only the ECM module will need to be replaced, not the entire fan. The Spal's electronics are in the motor, so the whole thing is toast.

Well, this is where "You do you" statement comes in. But I think you should be very clear to your customers that the Spal fan cannot operate continuous (or maybe even at all) at the power levels that you're stating.
 

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Ahh, do I see RPM mentioned in your post regarding power consumption? I think you're starting to understand. This is fan law 3 where every increase in rpm increased power consumption by its cubed root, or power of 3. This is very well understood in high performance vehicles and aero dynamics. anyway, lets leave that, but I think you're starting to get it.

On another note, re your fan speed derating based on temperature... 105c speed/watt derating temperature is very low. So at 220F the fan slows down? That's operating temperature of most newer engines, like the LS or LT. I think the LS application fans are called for at 250F. Underhood/near radiator temperatures are basically at +200F, so basically the Spal fan speed reduces almost immediately? to what level? Based on your info it will be impossible to sustain even 500watts for very long in an underhood application. Even at 85c ambient temperature, a 20c temperature rise (Junction temps Tj) at 40amps is nearly instantaneous. Do you sell any of these to engineers?

The Delta PAG fans are Grade 0. Means 150c continuous. These components are more expensive but they get the job done. We don't reduce speed when the application needs max air...uhh... that causes vehicle overheating. Uhm... Duhh. Now if our product is used in applications north of 150c Tj (302F) then the life of our ECM control module is reduced. Which then only the ECM module will need to be replaced, not the entire fan. The Spal's electronics are in the motor, so the whole thing is toast.

Well, this is where "You do you" statement comes in. But I think you should be very clear to your customers that the Spal fan cannot operate continuous (or maybe even at all) at the power levels that you're stating.
If you want to know how SPAL fans operates at high temperatures buy one and test it in a thermal chamber. Our fans work well enough for our customers. Our customers are the ones to specify our fans on their applications, which as you mentioned are increasing in operating temperature. (High temperatures is our specialty, we provide fans that survive and perform at high temperatures and in harsh environments.) We can't force our customers to select our fans, they test ours and many other manufacturer's fans and choose the ones they want. Our fans will derate performance to protect themselves at the top end of our temperature range, but that's a good thing as the alternative is just letting the motor burn itself up. The trick is selecting a fan such that the derating temperature is higher than the anticipated temps in the application... or you select a higher temperature rated fan. It's that simple. SPAL has plenty of motor options to meet the temperature and performance demands of our customers.

When ambient air passes through a radiator it only picks up a portion of the heat load inside a radiator. (This is due to the surface area in contact with the airstream, the temperature difference between the incoming air and the temperature of the radiator, and the amount of time the airflow remains in the radiator.) Starting with ambient temperature air the airstream exiting a radiator can't be 250°F if the fluid temp inside is 250°F. This is called the 'air temp rise' across a radiator, or the change in temperature of the airstream due to the heat added by the radiator. Air exiting a radiator can't be at the same temperature as the fluid inside if lower temperature air is entering/cooling the radiator.

You're power³ -> RPM statement is true. Each incremental increase in RPM is 3 incremental increases in power consumption. But that just emphasizes the importance of variable speed, turn it down when it's not needed. Turning speed down off of full speed can have significant power savings. Also with a properly sized fan/radiator system the fan isn't going to spend much time at full speed as it would be intended for worst case conditions, or corner operating conditions where most customers won't be constantly operating the system. But RPM isn't the only way to increase the current draw.

When you need more airflow performance there are only a few ways to achieve more airflow. Here's something to consider:
(Input) * (Efficiency) = (Output)
(Input Power) * (Efficiency) = (Static Pressure output) * (Airflow output)

If we assume 'efficiency' is a quasi-fixed value based on material selection/component properties and thermal limitations. (Typically 30-45% with brushless fans.) Then the only way to increase airflow and static pressure is to increase the input power. Increasing input power can be done by increasing the RPM or by increasing the torque/load on the motor by changing the blade design to a more aggressive blade profile. Turning up the 'efficiency' of a fan is not such an easy task, so it makes more sense to look at other terms on the 'input' side of the equation, namely power consumption. The downside to increasing power consumption is you have to dissipate more heat from your motor, which is something SPAL is very good at doing, as I mentioned, this is where SPAL has most of their patents.

You can bash SPAL online all you want, claiming our fans don't last, can't hold up to temperatures, and our numbers are just for marketing. But the results speak for themselves. As evidenced in this forum full of people retrofitting our products into their vehicles. People want SPAL for the performance and reliability.
 

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Glad to see that you understand the relationship between RPMs & Watts and you've deviated from statements like "RPM is also not part of the power equation"

Let me make this clear, I do not believe efficiency is the same between Spal and Delta PAG. Delta PAG is significantly better. We will provide certified numbers shortly, stay tuned. There are a bunch of reason why the Delta PAG's fan is more efficient, many of them are patented. Yes its extremely difficult and expensive to measurably improve efficiency. One quick difference is that Delta PAG use Neodymium magnets and Spal uses Alnico with far less BH (also cheaper). Anyway, whatever, the proof is in the pudding, the official #s. Completely agree with you Tim.

Btw, yes, the exit temperatures from a radiator do depend on many factors. after doing a ton of tests, the temperature difference from 250f (fan operating temps of LS vehicles) was around 75%-80% = aprox 200f. That's looking at ambient air temps of +100f (tarmac temps) and a performance radiator with the hood closed (thermal couple zip tied to a bent welding rod). The Spal motor internals will quickly and easily add 20 degrees at 500watts.

Also, I'm not bashing at all. These are all engineering numbers and calculations. All of these numbers that I mention are directly from your posts or Spal's datasheet that you published. Fact, Spal brushless fans reduce speed, airflow and watts at 221F based on internal motor temperatures (Junction Tj). Ok, that's very important information. How much does it reduce when the fan goes into limp-mode? Is it completely flaccid :ROFLMAO:? Get it, flaccid, goes limp. Sorry that's the 5yo in me.

Brett, please realize, I didn't start this thread. Recall it was your post that compared Delta PAG's 300watts to Spals 600watts. But you omitted the limp-mode feature of Spals fans. Delta PAG's 300watts can be done continuous. When do the Spals tap out at 200f underhood temps?

It's my opinion that omitting important information is equivalent to lying. I know that marketing deps, lawyers & politicians disagree. But, in my humble opinion, your initial post is a lie.
 

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Glad to see that you understand the relationship between RPMs & Watts and you've deviated from statements like "RPM is also not part of the power equation"

Let me make this clear, I do not believe efficiency is the same between Spal and Delta PAG. Delta PAG is significantly better. We will provide certified numbers shortly, stay tuned. There are a bunch of reason why the Delta PAG's fan is more efficient, many of them are patented. Yes its extremely difficult and expensive to measurably improve efficiency. One quick difference is that Delta PAG use Neodymium magnets and Spal uses Alnico with far less BH (also cheaper). Anyway, whatever, the proof is in the pudding, the official #s. Completely agree with you Tim.

Btw, yes, the exit temperatures from a radiator do depend on many factors. after doing a ton of tests, the temperature difference from 250f (fan operating temps of LS vehicles) was around 75%-80% = aprox 200f. That's looking at ambient air temps of +100f (tarmac temps) and a performance radiator with the hood closed (thermal couple zip tied to a bent welding rod). The Spal motor internals will quickly and easily add 20 degrees at 500watts.

Also, I'm not bashing at all. These are all engineering numbers and calculations. All of these numbers that I mention are directly from your posts or Spal's datasheet that you published. Fact, Spal brushless fans reduce speed, airflow and watts at 221F based on internal motor temperatures (Junction Tj). Ok, that's very important information. How much does it reduce when the fan goes into limp-mode? Is it completely flaccid :ROFLMAO:? Get it, flaccid, goes limp. Sorry that's the 5yo in me.

Brett, please realize, I didn't start this thread. Recall it was your post that compared Delta PAG's 300watts to Spals 600watts. But you omitted the limp-mode feature of Spals fans. Delta PAG's 300watts can be done continuous. When do the Spals tap out at 200f underhood temps?

It's my opinion that omitting important information is equivalent to lying. I know that marketing deps, lawyers & politicians disagree. But, in my humble opinion, your initial post is a lie.

It's not a difficult concept. We ask the customer what the max temp is in their application. We select a fan that derates at a temperature greater than their max temp requirements. That way the fan 'should' never derate in the application. The derating only occurs at the extreme temperature limits, not in regular operation. Derating is a good thing because the alternative is letting the motor burn itself up and stop functioning. The derating allows the fan to continue functioning even above the expected temp requirements of the system. So it adds 'extra margin' for temp rise in the system, and it allows the fan to continue functioning and returning to normal function as temps decrease. (Again, the alternative is to let the motor fail. At least with derating the fan is undamaged and continues to run another day.) Some fans can derate at temps greater than 221°F if the fan is being asked to run at maximum performance, and the temperature continues to increase in the application. But obviously you wouldn't select that fan if the temps in the application could reach >221°F, you would select one with higher temperature limits. We have hundreds of part numbers that have different requirements/expectations. So we can provide the customer a fan that operates in whatever temperature they require. Or if they need a more powerful fan to reject more heat to keep temps down, then they never reach the high end of ambient temps. We have options.

If you want to know how our fans work, buy a car with our fans and drive the wheels off it, and see if the fans give you trouble. Bottom line, we make the fan to meet the requirements of our customers, and we make a powerful and reliable fan.
 

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It's funny that you keep saying I'm lying/misleading but yet I'm just trying to help you understand how we do things differently. Derating isn't a big deal because our customers usually don't even come close to hitting derating temps. Our fans are selected such that they provide enough performance to prevent temps from increasing.

Maybe the lie is believing that a "300W" Delta fan can provide the same airflow output as a 600W SPAL fan? Why is it so hard to believe that more motor power could result in greater airflow?

When are you guys making a fan that doesn't use the thin curved 'S' blade? Please don't tell me that this blade is 'the most amazing thing' and that 'you'll never need something more.' (If that were true, all vehicles would use this design and they certainly don't.) The thin curved 'S' blade design is the lowest performing blade design we offer and is simply a compromise on a straight blade in an attempt to reduce noise. When are you guys going to investigate a more aggressive blade design?
 

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I can honestly say, I enjoyed reading the last bit of engineering discussions. Clearly it's two different methods to achieve the same. Goal, either use more power to force more air, or use less power and increase the area of the radiator the fan is blowing on.

Out of curiosity, what are the fans you two would recommend from your companies for the TBSS? Assuming one wanted the most cooling for a daily driver and towing type of vehicle that still gets drove like an SS, and you're willing to upgrade wiring to the fan.

What would be really awesome is if we could arrange a side by side test on the same vehicle and see which one worked better.
 

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I can honestly say, I enjoyed reading the last bit of engineering discussions. Clearly it's two different methods to achieve the same. Goal, either use more power to force more air, or use less power and increase the area of the radiator the fan is blowing on.

Out of curiosity, what are the fans you two would recommend from your companies for the TBSS? Assuming one wanted the most cooling for a daily driver and towing type of vehicle that still gets drove like an SS, and you're willing to upgrade wiring to the fan.

What would be really awesome is if we could arrange a side by side test on the same vehicle and see which one worked better.

I'm not sure what the dimensions of the radiator is in the TBSS, but this is what I would recommend based on what other people are using: 14" Brushless Fan (500 Watts) And DIY Shroud Kit

It's our 14" 500W brushless fan, sensor, and harness kit. The sensor controls the fan variable speed. We offer 4 different temperature ranges for the sensor, I would probably recommend SBL-TS-215P which turns the fan on at minimum speed ~25% speed at 190°F, and it would linearly ramp the fan up to full speed at 215°F. At full speed this fan is often consuming ~40-45 amps. This is very similar to the fan that comes in the standard C7 500W model. It's the same blade and motor but the mounting is different, and the software on the motor is different. These fans 'may' be able to be driven by a factory ECU direcly if the ECU has a grounding/negative type PWM output that is configurable to 100 Hz. and controls duty cycle between 15-92%. The nice thing about this system is the fan only runs as needed to maintain temperature, so it's quiet when you want it to be, and powerful when you need it. (Specs are attached.)

The only thing that is missing out of that kit that you would also need is a 10 AWG MAXI Fuse holder.

This fan is great for high restriction systems. (Rad + AC Condenser +...) So if you are replacing a mechanical fan this would be our best option that isn't OEM proprietary. This is the same fan used to cool the Hoonitruck (two fans are used), with a remote mounted radiator. So you can imagine the heat rejection on a vehicle like this that is seeing very little 'ram' airflow:
102071



The 600W C7 fan is also a great option, but it won't work with our coolant sensor/controller so you will have to drive it from an ECU or use another controller. Then you'll have to mount the thing as well, which is always a challenge.

The truth is you could probably 'make it work' with a lower powered fan. But would it cool in all conditions? Maybe, maybe not. Obviously towing, uphill, on a hot day, at high altitude, is going to be the 'real test' but most people don't plan/build for corner conditions like those. But OEMs absolutely design for conditions like this, and that's why you still find mechanical fans in cars being built today. Slowly they are being forced to electric fans by emissions/fuel consumption and as electric fan power catches up to meet the same airflow requirements. I would say that today we could cool any standard vehicle under any conditions with a SPAL brushless fan. We have done transit buses, and military vehicles like MRAP and JLTV for a few years. Hopefully in the next year or so, we can say that SPAL brushless fans will have enough power to cool class 8 trucks as well. (We are currently working with a few different manufacturers.)

If you guys are ever at PRI in Indianapolis (when it happens again,) you can stop by the SPAL booth and the Delta Pag booth. Usually we are both there, with product demonstrations. You can see the fans in person and feel the difference and decide for yourselves. Or if you make it to SEMA, stop by our booth, we'll be happy to show you what we can do.

-Brent
 

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